[cle-release-team] Display of locales in user preferences and site settings

Neal Caidin nealcaidin at sakaifoundation.org
Mon Apr 22 05:33:19 PDT 2013 

Hi J-F,

I think that would be a good start. If i18n/L10n likes it, then we should at least run by CLE release team and TCC to make sure that nothing obvious is being missed. We need to make sure that the patch includes an update to Site Info as well as Preferences. 

And, I would get feedback from the broader community. Probably everyone will be okay with it, but we don't want anybody to experience surprises, so it should be widely communicated. This is a very visible change. 

Sorting still seems a bit non-intuitive, but I'm not sure what the proposal should be for that. If several major systems use the same sorting approach, at least being consistent with that seems wise, unless someone can come up with something better.

Cheers,

Neal Caidin

Sakai CLE Community Coordinator
nealcaidin at sakaifoundation.org
Skype: nealkdin
AIM: ncaidin at aol.com





On Apr 22, 2013, at 4:35 AM, Jean-Francois Leveque <jean-francois.leveque at upmc.fr> wrote:

> I like what you've shown us with the help of Aaron, Neil.
> 
> Are we talking about making the following proposal to the i18n/L10n WG?
> 
> Display locales in the following format : {language name in its locale} 
> - {country name in its locale} ({Variant}) [{locale code}]
> 
> Ordering by displayed values
> 
> Use the same order in user preferences and site preferences, while 
> keeping default (keep server locale) at the top of site preferences.
> 
> Cheers,
> J-F
> 
> On 19/04/2013 17:15, Neal Caidin wrote:
>> I'm also agreeing with Aaron that we should back out the change for
>> 2.9.2 , but for different reasons.
>> 
>> * I think if we made this change, even though it seems relatively small,
>> it could be a big impact on the community and unanticipated, especially
>> for a maintenance release. I think there needs to be more communication
>> about this to the community. Give everybody a heads up on what's coming.
>> Hear if they have concerns. (I would be happy to facilitate this
>> communication.)
>> 
>> * Are we approaching this the best way? Aaron shared with me what Moodle
>> and Facebook do, which is to display languages in their native tongue,
>> but also include the international key. See screenshot. I think we need
>> more discussion. Which does seem to be reflected in Anthony's comments.
>> 
>> * Other issues: Consistency (i.e. using the same approach in languages
>> in a Site) and sorting, seem like they can be figured out, and may be
>> part of the communication and exploration described above.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Neal
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 19, 2013, at 11:05 AM, Anthony Whyte <arwhyte at umich.edu
>> <mailto:arwhyte at umich.edu>> wrote:
>> 
>>> At first I was inclined to agree with JFL: display each language
>>> option in the drop down using the script and common name understood by
>>> each native speaker. So the Russian option is displayed in Cyrillic
>>> script, Hungarian is labeled Magyar and so on, irrespective of the
>>> default locale controlling text in the rest of the interface.
>>> 
>>> On reflection, this appears wrong to me and represents an exception to
>>> the notion that interface elements such as drop down options should
>>> adhere to the linguistic, cultural and technical conventions and
>>> standards of a chosen locale. The approach taken in
>>> https://jira.sakaiproject.org/browse/SAK-23435 appears to violate this
>>> principle as it imposes a locale-independent naming and sorting
>>> approach which renders certain drop down options potentially
>>> incomprehensible to certain users, irrespective of their preferred locale.
>>> 
>>> I'm with Aaron, we should revert this change (for a quick review of
>>> what's changed compare Nightly2 2.8.x and 2.9.x).
>>> 
>>> JFL--what requirement are you referring to below?
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Anth
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Apr 19, 2013, at 10:12 AM, Jean-Francois Leveque wrote:
>>> 
>>>> It won't pass testing on i18n user locale preferences requirement. ;-)
>>>> 
>>>> On 19/04/2013 16:11, Neal Caidin wrote:
>>>>> So if rc01 passes testing, we would have an rc02 anyway?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 19, 2013, at 9:57 AM, Jean-Francois
>>>>> Leveque<jean-francois.leveque at upmc.fr
>>>>> <mailto:jean-francois.leveque at upmc.fr>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> We could decide to have a rc02 if we can't wait for rc01.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 19/04/2013 15:55, Neal Caidin wrote:
>>>>>>>> I'm not asking for postponing 2.9.2-rc01, but I think we really
>>>>>>>> need it in the 2.9.2 official release.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The point of the rc01 is that if it passes testing then it becomes
>>>>>>> the official release. The decision needs to be made whether to
>>>>>>> back out the change and proceed with rc01, or fix it for 2.9.2,
>>>>>>> which means delaying rc01 until that is figured out. Saying to not
>>>>>>> fix it for rc01, but do fix it for the 2.9.2 official release
>>>>>>> doesn't work. (Am I wrong? This is what makes sense to me.)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Neal
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Apr 19, 2013, at 9:38 AM, Jean-Francois
>>>>>>> Leveque<jean-francois.leveque at upmc.fr
>>>>>>> <mailto:jean-francois.leveque at upmc.fr>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think the locale should be displayed in its own language.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Look at how the languages are displayed on the left in
>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page for example.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If you don't know how the locale is named in its own language,
>>>>>>>> you should not choose this language in the preferences, AFAICT.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Please don't forget I'm doing this for others. If the majority of
>>>>>>>> the CLE team really want what Aaron wants, please make your
>>>>>>>> statement on i18n at collab.sakaiproject.org
>>>>>>>> <mailto:i18n at collab.sakaiproject.org>. Otherwise, I expect to get
>>>>>>>> this fix in 2.9 ASAP.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I'm not asking for postponing 2.9.2-rc01, but I think we really
>>>>>>>> need it in the 2.9.2 official release.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> J-F
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 19/04/2013 15:25, Aaron Zeckoski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> This is because the actual name of the "Nederlands" language is
>>>>>>>>> Dutch
>>>>>>>>> (to an english speaker) and D is before E. I actually think this
>>>>>>>>> change from
>>>>>>>>> https://jira.sakaiproject.org/browse/SAK-23435
>>>>>>>>> is wrong the more I think about it. The language should be displayed
>>>>>>>>> to the user and sorted by the language name they would
>>>>>>>>> understand and
>>>>>>>>> not by the name of the language in a language they probably cannot
>>>>>>>>> read or might not know.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> A solution might be show the language as "Dutch (Netherlands) -
>>>>>>>>> Nederlands (Nederland)" or something like that. There is plenty of
>>>>>>>>> room in the UI for it.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I think all the changes for this ticket need to be reverted and
>>>>>>>>> discussed further. They definitely should not be merged to 2.9.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -AZ
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 8:47 AM, Jean-Francois Leveque
>>>>>>>>> <jean-francois.leveque at upmc.fr> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> As far as I can tell, the values are not in a alpha
>>>>>>>>>> case-insensitive which
>>>>>>>>>> is the expected order, or even case-sensitive order, AFAICT.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> français is before Deutsch and Nederlands is before English.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Each locale is now displayed in the language for that locale,
>>>>>>>>>> but the
>>>>>>>>>> sorting should be on displayed, not other values such as the
>>>>>>>>>> locale name in
>>>>>>>>>> English.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Please check the LocaleComparator and provide code that does
>>>>>>>>>> the work.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> J-F
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 19/04/2013 14:01, Aaron Zeckoski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> It looks fine to me as is (appearing in alpha order by
>>>>>>>>>>> language) but I
>>>>>>>>>>> guess there is some concern about the ordering of the languages or
>>>>>>>>>>> something I am not getting.
>>>>>>>>>>> -AZ
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 7:46 AM, Neal Caidin
>>>>>>>>>>> <nealcaidin at sakaifoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> What are the options?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * fix and re-merge before cutting 2.9.2-rc01
>>>>>>>>>>>> * proceed with cutting rc01 with this as a known issue
>>>>>>>>>>>> * back this change out of 2.9.x to revert the regression,
>>>>>>>>>>>> then proceed
>>>>>>>>>>>> with rc01
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I presume that this is currently the only issue holding up rc01?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Neal
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 19, 2013, at 5:04 AM, Anthony Whyte<arwhyte at umich.edu>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm on the road today (day off) but I'll check back later
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this morning
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and see if there is any further work on the ticket.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anth
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 19, 2013, at 4:30 AM, Jean-Francois Leveque wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Changes in https://jira.sakaiproject.org/browse/SAK-23435
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> broke the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> locales order in the user preferences.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I had to reopen this issue. I also had to close it before
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reopening
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because of the workflow. :(
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> J-F
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18/04/2013 21:48, Anthony Whyte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sam, Aaron and I just completed 2.9.x merge work. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.9.x merge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> backlog now stands at 2 tickets, both of which are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> punted to the 2.9.3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> release. [1] I think its time to consider cutting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.9.0-rc01 tag.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also recommend that from this moment until 2.9.x is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> released, we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> limit branch merge work to release blockers and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regressions discovered
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during final testing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've started a local build of 2.9.x-all against an empty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .m2 repo. If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hit a build failure you'll be the first to know.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anthony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://jira.sakaiproject.org/browse/SAK-22798
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major, accessibility; merge conflicts, Gonzalo Silverio
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Joe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Humbert concur that we can punt on this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://jira.sakaiproject.org/browse/SAK-22521
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major, neoPortal sites drawer issue, no trunk commit revision
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided despite repeated requests, so punt
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