[cle-release-team] Display of locales in user preferences and site settings

[Jean-Francois Leveque]

I like what you've shown us with the help of Aaron, Neil.

Are we talking about making the following proposal to the i18n/L10n WG?

Display locales in the following format : {language name in its locale} 
- {country name in its locale} ({Variant}) [{locale code}]

Ordering by displayed values

Use the same order in user preferences and site preferences, while 
keeping default (keep server locale) at the top of site preferences.

Cheers,
J-F

On 19/04/2013 17:15, Neal Caidin wrote:
> I'm also agreeing with Aaron that we should back out the change for
> 2.9.2 , but for different reasons.
>
> * I think if we made this change, even though it seems relatively small,
> it could be a big impact on the community and unanticipated, especially
> for a maintenance release. I think there needs to be more communication
> about this to the community. Give everybody a heads up on what's coming.
> Hear if they have concerns. (I would be happy to facilitate this
> communication.)
>
> * Are we approaching this the best way? Aaron shared with me what Moodle
> and Facebook do, which is to display languages in their native tongue,
> but also include the international key. See screenshot. I think we need
> more discussion. Which does seem to be reflected in Anthony's comments.
>
> * Other issues: Consistency (i.e. using the same approach in languages
> in a Site) and sorting, seem like they can be figured out, and may be
> part of the communication and exploration described above.
>
> Cheers,
> Neal
>
>
>
> On Apr 19, 2013, at 11:05 AM, Anthony Whyte <arwhyte at umich.edu
> <mailto:arwhyte at umich.edu>> wrote:
>
>> At first I was inclined to agree with JFL: display each language
>> option in the drop down using the script and common name understood by
>> each native speaker. So the Russian option is displayed in Cyrillic
>> script, Hungarian is labeled Magyar and so on, irrespective of the
>> default locale controlling text in the rest of the interface.
>>
>> On reflection, this appears wrong to me and represents an exception to
>> the notion that interface elements such as drop down options should
>> adhere to the linguistic, cultural and technical conventions and
>> standards of a chosen locale. The approach taken in
>> https://jira.sakaiproject.org/browse/SAK-23435 appears to violate this
>> principle as it imposes a locale-independent naming and sorting
>> approach which renders certain drop down options potentially
>> incomprehensible to certain users, irrespective of their preferred locale.
>>
>> I'm with Aaron, we should revert this change (for a quick review of
>> what's changed compare Nightly2 2.8.x and 2.9.x).
>>
>> JFL--what requirement are you referring to below?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Anth
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 19, 2013, at 10:12 AM, Jean-Francois Leveque wrote:
>>
>>> It won't pass testing on i18n user locale preferences requirement. ;-)
>>>
>>> On 19/04/2013 16:11, Neal Caidin wrote:
>>>> So if rc01 passes testing, we would have an rc02 anyway?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 19, 2013, at 9:57 AM, Jean-Francois
>>>> Leveque<jean-francois.leveque at upmc.fr
>>>> <mailto:jean-francois.leveque at upmc.fr>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We could decide to have a rc02 if we can't wait for rc01.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 19/04/2013 15:55, Neal Caidin wrote:
>>>>>>> I'm not asking for postponing 2.9.2-rc01, but I think we really
>>>>>>> need it in the 2.9.2 official release.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point of the rc01 is that if it passes testing then it becomes
>>>>>> the official release. The decision needs to be made whether to
>>>>>> back out the change and proceed with rc01, or fix it for 2.9.2,
>>>>>> which means delaying rc01 until that is figured out. Saying to not
>>>>>> fix it for rc01, but do fix it for the 2.9.2 official release
>>>>>> doesn't work. (Am I wrong? This is what makes sense to me.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Neal
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 19, 2013, at 9:38 AM, Jean-Francois
>>>>>> Leveque<jean-francois.leveque at upmc.fr
>>>>>> <mailto:jean-francois.leveque at upmc.fr>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the locale should be displayed in its own language.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Look at how the languages are displayed on the left in
>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page for example.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you don't know how the locale is named in its own language,
>>>>>>> you should not choose this language in the preferences, AFAICT.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please don't forget I'm doing this for others. If the majority of
>>>>>>> the CLE team really want what Aaron wants, please make your
>>>>>>> statement on i18n at collab.sakaiproject.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:i18n at collab.sakaiproject.org>. Otherwise, I expect to get
>>>>>>> this fix in 2.9 ASAP.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not asking for postponing 2.9.2-rc01, but I think we really
>>>>>>> need it in the 2.9.2 official release.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> J-F
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 19/04/2013 15:25, Aaron Zeckoski wrote:
>>>>>>>> This is because the actual name of the "Nederlands" language is
>>>>>>>> Dutch
>>>>>>>> (to an english speaker) and D is before E. I actually think this
>>>>>>>> change from
>>>>>>>> https://jira.sakaiproject.org/browse/SAK-23435
>>>>>>>> is wrong the more I think about it. The language should be displayed
>>>>>>>> to the user and sorted by the language name they would
>>>>>>>> understand and
>>>>>>>> not by the name of the language in a language they probably cannot
>>>>>>>> read or might not know.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A solution might be show the language as "Dutch (Netherlands) -
>>>>>>>> Nederlands (Nederland)" or something like that. There is plenty of
>>>>>>>> room in the UI for it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think all the changes for this ticket need to be reverted and
>>>>>>>> discussed further. They definitely should not be merged to 2.9.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -AZ
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 8:47 AM, Jean-Francois Leveque
>>>>>>>> <jean-francois.leveque at upmc.fr> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> As far as I can tell, the values are not in a alpha
>>>>>>>>> case-insensitive which
>>>>>>>>> is the expected order, or even case-sensitive order, AFAICT.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> français is before Deutsch and Nederlands is before English.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Each locale is now displayed in the language for that locale,
>>>>>>>>> but the
>>>>>>>>> sorting should be on displayed, not other values such as the
>>>>>>>>> locale name in
>>>>>>>>> English.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please check the LocaleComparator and provide code that does
>>>>>>>>> the work.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> J-F
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 19/04/2013 14:01, Aaron Zeckoski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It looks fine to me as is (appearing in alpha order by
>>>>>>>>>> language) but I
>>>>>>>>>> guess there is some concern about the ordering of the languages or
>>>>>>>>>> something I am not getting.
>>>>>>>>>> -AZ
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 7:46 AM, Neal Caidin
>>>>>>>>>> <nealcaidin at sakaifoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What are the options?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> * fix and re-merge before cutting 2.9.2-rc01
>>>>>>>>>>> * proceed with cutting rc01 with this as a known issue
>>>>>>>>>>> * back this change out of 2.9.x to revert the regression,
>>>>>>>>>>> then proceed
>>>>>>>>>>> with rc01
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I presume that this is currently the only issue holding up rc01?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>> Neal
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 19, 2013, at 5:04 AM, Anthony Whyte<arwhyte at umich.edu>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm on the road today (day off) but I'll check back later
>>>>>>>>>>>> this morning
>>>>>>>>>>>> and see if there is any further work on the ticket.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anth
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 19, 2013, at 4:30 AM, Jean-Francois Leveque wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Changes in https://jira.sakaiproject.org/browse/SAK-23435
>>>>>>>>>>>>> broke the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> locales order in the user preferences.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I had to reopen this issue. I also had to close it before
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reopening
>>>>>>>>>>>>> because of the workflow. :(
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> J-F
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18/04/2013 21:48, Anthony Whyte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sam, Aaron and I just completed 2.9.x merge work. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.9.x merge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> backlog now stands at 2 tickets, both of which are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> punted to the 2.9.3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> release. [1] I think its time to consider cutting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.9.0-rc01 tag.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also recommend that from this moment until 2.9.x is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> released, we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> limit branch merge work to release blockers and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regressions discovered
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during final testing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've started a local build of 2.9.x-all against an empty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .m2 repo. If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hit a build failure you'll be the first to know.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anthony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://jira.sakaiproject.org/browse/SAK-22798
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major, accessibility; merge conflicts, Gonzalo Silverio
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Joe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Humbert concur that we can punt on this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://jira.sakaiproject.org/browse/SAK-22521
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major, neoPortal sites drawer issue, no trunk commit revision
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided despite repeated requests, so punt