[Building Sakai] How to checkout the 2.9.0 tag source includingall tagged indie source?
Daniel Merino
daniel.merino at unavarra.es
Mon Dec 17 03:04:42 PST 2012
Hi, Steve.
I have installed this tag (thanks a lot for creating it, by the way) and
I miss the Clog tool (or whatever blog tool that is packed in 2.9).
Is this tool intentionally excluded of the list? I remember that Clog
tool was said to be the standard blog in 2.9.
Thanks.
Best regards.
Steve Swinsburg escribió:
> The 2.9.0-all pom took me about half an hour to pull together, using
> the 2.9.x-all tag which listed all indies, and the 2.9.0 tag which
> listed the stable versions so I could get the tag locations. Now its
> done, it can just be copied and the tag locations updated and it's done.
>
> If people are going to find the -all tag to be useful, then it should
> just be part of the release process.
>
> We need to have a discussion around the value of the indies. For
> projects that are actively being developed, then they make a lot of
> sense. For smaller institutions that do not modify them, they make
> deployments and upgrades very easy. For core projects that you cannot
> run without, or those that just receive maintenance, then there is
> little value in them at all.
>
> The 2.9.x-all branch's .externals has a good separation of this
> already, which is what I am talking about. The first section lists the
> true indie tools. These are very simple to pull out if you want or
> upgrade by simply changing a version in master.
>
> basiclti
> jobscheduler
> lessonbuilder
> mailsender
> msgcntr
> polls
> profile
> profile2
> reset-pass
> samigo
> search
> shortenedurl
> sitestats
>
>
> Then there are these which IMVHO do not need to be indies and should
> be reverted back to being in the full source checkout.
>
> announcement
> assignment
> calendar
> courier
> mailarchive
> message
> portal
> presence
> site
> taggable
> velocity
>
> cheers,
> Steve
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 1:54 AM, Matthew Jones <matthew at longsight.com
> <mailto:matthew at longsight.com>> wrote:
>
> It looks like this pom and externals doesn't include the pack
> module and profile.
>
> I'm still of the opinion that maintaining all of these extra
> branches is going to be too much extra work in the future. If
> someone (like Steve) is going to consistently volunteer every
> release to contribute the effort in providing, testing and
> supporting this "release branch+all" then I'm for it. Otherwise if
> this is a problem for the community we need to rethink the way we
> do our releases as I don't have the extra time available to add in
> these extra steps.
>
> I kind of like the way Chris and I were doing the intermediate
> releases back in the first few betas for 2.9 back in January.
> Mostly Monolithic Sakai, just using a 2.9.x nightly and putting
> that out on the QA's calling it 2.9.0-MM-DD-YYYY. It was something
> everyone could deploy and rely on. Then for the final release we
> could actually do it properly but we wouldn't actually need to
> release all of the artifacts and assemblies to the repository (the
> artifacts for the stuff in core aren't there anyway), just the
> api's and utils that contrib tools might depend on. The only real
> value I can see for those is so someone could build a contrib tool
> without downloading and building the entire source.
>
> I feel that the value of the assemblies for core tools is low
> (since you need maven anyway to get the assemblies right now), the
> value of the artifacts in the repositories (other than apis and
> utils) is even lower. Yet it eats up hours during every release
> cycle still preparing this stuff. I'm skeptical if anyone actually
> takes (for instance) the 2.9.1 assembly of something and drops it
> in to 2.9.0 without the rest of 2.9.1. They'd have to manually do
> a lot of cleanup for that to work anyway.
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Neal Caidin
> <nealcaidin at sakaifoundation.org
> <mailto:nealcaidin at sakaifoundation.org>> wrote:
>
> I
> downloaded https://source.sakaiproject.org/svn/sakai/tags/sakai-2.9.0-all/ and
> ran "mvn install -Ppack-demo" . The build chugged along
> until the end, when I got "[WARNING] The requested profile
> "pack-demo" could not be activated because it does not exist."
> There is a pack-demo directory with a build.xml and a pom.xml .
>
> Is that expected behavior? Maybe I'm doing something wrong?
>
> The same command does work for me for sakai-2.9.0, but not for
> sakai-2.9.0-all .
>
> (Please consider this part of my learning curve. Building
> Sakai CLE is still new to me ;-) )
>
> Thanks,
> Neal
>
>
>
> On Nov 29, 2012, at 8:10 AM, "Gast, Cynthia (cmw6s)"
> <cmw6s at eservices.virginia.edu
> <mailto:cmw6s at eservices.virginia.edu>> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Steve.
>>
>> I just tested the new tag, using 'svn export', and it ran to
>> completion. I hope someone else can test building this for
>> you, but I will, as soon as we get a machine configured for
>> 2.9.0 :-)
>>
>> Thanks again to everyone who contributed to this discussion,
>> and for all the help and attention to this matter -- its a
>> HUGE time savings for checking out ALL the 2.9.0 source,
>> including the indie source!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Cindy
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Steve Swinsburg [steve.swinsburg at gmail.com
>> <mailto:steve.swinsburg at gmail.com>]
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 29, 2012 8:05 AM
>> *To:* Gast, Cynthia (cmw6s)
>> *Cc:* Cris J Holdorph; sakai-dev
>> *Subject:* Re: [Building Sakai] How to checkout the 2.9.0 tag
>> source including all tagged indie source?
>>
>> Hi Cindy,
>>
>> The API mod was just a test to see if my local source mods
>> made it out to Tomcat after a full rebuild, and they did.
>>
>> I am using Java 6. I will probably move to Java 7 later next
>> year. I have a bunch of other projects that need to be
>> compatibility tested first.
>>
>> cheers,
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 11:53 PM, Gast, Cynthia
>> (cmw6s) <cmw6s at eservices.virginia.edu
>> <mailto:cmw6s at eservices.virginia.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Steve!
>>
>> I'll test the 'svn export' of this new tag.
>> Unfortunately, I'm not able to test building yet, we need
>> to get a machine set up and another group here handles
>> that for us.
>>
>> Was the API mod you mention required to build?
>>
>> Steve or anyone, are you building with Java 6 or 7? That
>> is an outstanding question I have, and need to specify
>> the Java version for our machine setup request. We'd
>> love to know that its safe to go with Java 7 because of
>> the Feb 2013 EOL announced for Java 6.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Cindy
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* sakai-dev-bounces at collab.sakaiproject.org
>> <mailto:sakai-dev-bounces at collab.sakaiproject.org> [sakai-dev-bounces at collab.sakaiproject.org
>> <mailto:sakai-dev-bounces at collab.sakaiproject.org>] on
>> behalf of Steve Swinsburg [steve.swinsburg at gmail.com
>> <mailto:steve.swinsburg at gmail.com>]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 28, 2012 7:30 PM
>> *To:* Cris J Holdorph
>> *Cc:* sakai-dev
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Building Sakai] How to checkout the 2.9.0
>> tag source including all tagged indie source?
>>
>> I've created a 2.9.0-all tag here:
>> https://source.sakaiproject.org/svn/sakai/tags/sakai-2.9.0-all/
>>
>> It has all of the relevant source including indies and
>> modules updated etc, and seems to work fine. I modified
>> one of the API's in one of the projects (just added a
>> string constant), did a full rebuild of the entire lot,
>> decompiled the deployed version of that jar that I
>> modified and it matched my local source.
>>
>> Could someone else please verify?
>>
>> cheers,
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 7:43 AM, Cris J
>> Holdorph <holdorph at unicon.net
>> <mailto:holdorph at unicon.net>> wrote:
>>
>> I had a similar experience to Aaron, but with
>> slightly tweaked code. I
>> worked on it a while. I didn't exactly give up, but
>> the situation I
>> finally ended up in was a bunch of custom 1-offs that
>> I had to build
>> locally like of specific versions of purepom
>> RELEASES, plugins,
>> sakai-rsf, etc. Once I had done all of those *AND*
>> had updated a few of
>> the sakai 2.9.x-all sources to point to my 1-offs,
>> then I could finally
>> remove all of the ~/.m2/repository/org/sakaiproject/
>> directory tree and
>> do an offline build. It did require doing things in
>> the right order
>> though (like plugin, purepoms, sakai-rsf, etc.).
>>
>> ---- Cris J H
>>
>> On 11/28/2012 01:16 PM, Aaron Zeckoski wrote:
>> > I think that it *should* be possible to do an
>> offline build once an
>> > "online" build has been completed successfully.
>> However, if I delete
>> > the Sakai artifacts from my M2 repo and leave all
>> the others I cannot
>> > do an offline build of the 2.9 code.
>> >
>> > I haven't had much luck convincing others that this
>> is a real issue
>> > for community users but hopefully this conversation
>> will help with
>> > that.
>> >
>> > -AZ
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Matthew Jones
>> <matthew at longsight.com
>> <mailto:matthew at longsight.com>> wrote:
>> >> I believe what you were describing was being seen
>> by Unicon, which was why I
>> >> had to keep cleaning the SNAPSHOTS from the
>> repository and fixing bugs
>> >> awhile ago.
>> >>
>> >> Indies have a parent of master
>> >> The core has a parent of base which has a parent
>> of master
>> >>
>> >> I believe that if you just dump the indies into
>> base (which is not a parent
>> >> of any of the indies) then when maven builds up
>> it's dependency tree, it
>> >> doesn't necessarily see that assignment is a
>> dependency of lessons (for
>> >> example) since it can just go out to the
>> repository and get all of the
>> >> artifacts that lessons needs. This is *probably*
>> okay for the most part
>> >> since the dependencies are really just apis and
>> most people are just
>> >> modifying the impls. But if you're modifying impls
>> I don't think that maven
>> >> would necessarily order assignments (and
>> everything else) before lessons
>> >> unless the parent of lessons was base. If you
>> dumped the indies modules into
>> >> master, I'd probably be more confident.
>> >>
>> >> It's likely this didn't turn up in 2.7 because the
>> only indies then were
>> >> kernel and like 2-3 others. There were some in 2.8
>> but less and most of the
>> >> time people were probably messed up (or partially
>> saved) anyway with
>> >> purepoms and getting the versions that were
>> defined locally in the top level
>> >> of each tool anyway. I don't know because Michigan
>> never went to 2.8 and
>> >> Longsight has built off 2.8.x and also deploys
>> tools individually.
>> >>
>> >> 2.9.0 (and maybe even the 2.9.x-all as far as
>> indies are concerned) could
>> >> potentially cause all new problems unless it's
>> 100% guaranteed that maven
>> >> does correct reactor ordering and never goes out
>> to the repository for
>> >> artifacts that it has available to build. Since
>> it's not possibly to run in
>> >> offline mode (because of artifacts that we don't
>> have the source for) I'm
>> >> not too sure I'd 100% believe it without seeing a
>> few build logs for myself.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Steve Swinsburg
>> <steve.swinsburg at gmail.com
>> <mailto:steve.swinsburg at gmail.com>>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Changing the version numbers should not be
>> required. If the source module
>> >>> are listed in the base pom and there are no
>> assembly deploy poms, then maven
>> >>> will build a dependency graph and adjust the
>> build order to suit. It does
>> >>> that now, it's just that since there is no indie
>> source it will get
>> >>> artifacts solely from the remote repo. If you
>> look at the build you'll see
>> >>> individual jars being downloaded, like API etc,
>> as well as the all in one
>> >>> tomcat overlay. It's redundant but that's how
>> Maven sees the dependency
>> >>> graph.
>> >>>
>> >>> So adding the source modules as per the current
>> -all branches, you should
>> >>> not get any sakai app artifacts being downloaded,
>> they should all be built.
>> >>>
>> >>> If this does still occur then there is a
>> fundamental issue, and it would
>> >>> have been seen in 2.7 and earlier, since as part
>> of the tag/release process
>> >>> ALL artifacts are deployed to the Sakai maven
>> repo and you would have seen
>> >>> the conflicts then.
>> >>>
>> >>> http://source.sakaiproject.org/maven2/org/sakaiproject/sakai-announcement-api/
>> >>>
>> >>> I'll have a look at the parts you posted Cynthia,
>> and get this finalised
>> >>> today.
>> >>>
>> >>> Cheers
>> >>> Steve
>> >>>
>> >>> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>>
>> >>> On 29/11/2012, at 4:46, "Gast, Cynthia (cmw6s)"
>> >>> <cmw6s at eservices.virginia.edu
>> <mailto:cmw6s at eservices.virginia.edu>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Matthew - wow, so much to know about building
>> with all the indie source --
>> >>> thanks for sharing your knowledge. I'm
>> definitely still learning; I also
>> >>> wish it were easy to build everything without
>> having to make pom version
>> >>> changes to avoid downloading community-built
>> artifacts sneaking in.
>> >>> Customizing all the version numbers in poms takes
>> a chunk of start-up time,
>> >>> and I found I really had to manually examine each
>> pom for possible
>> >>> dependencies that contain hard-coded version
>> numbers for projects we build;
>> >>> I didn't see how I could automate this sweeping
>> version edit. I'll look at
>> >>> the 'groovy' work you did. Maybe 2.9.x will be
>> better without purepoms; and
>> >>> some of this hard-coding of version numbers
>> occurs in contrib tools. The
>> >>> use of version properties, and defining a version
>> number in one place, is
>> >>> extremely helpful, but I wasn't able to assume
>> before that it was a practice
>> >>> that was consistently followed.
>> >>>
>> >>> So, for the first build of a new release (after
>> making the uva-version
>> >>> updates), I closely examine the build logs for
>> incorrect (not uva-built)
>> >>> downloaded versions of artifacts and adjust until
>> those we build are
>> >>> referenced.
>> >>>
>> >>> We were considering not customizing the version
>> numbers this time around,
>> >>> to save some start up time, but I'm glad we've
>> had this discussion today
>> >>> because it now appears important that we continue
>> to do so.
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >>> Cindy @ UVa
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ________________________________
>> >>> From: Matthew Jones [matthew at longsight.com
>> <mailto:matthew at longsight.com>]
>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 11:31 AM
>> >>> To: Gast, Cynthia (cmw6s)
>> >>> Cc: Steve
>> Swinsburg; sakai-dev at collab.sakaiproject.org
>> <mailto:sakai-dev at collab.sakaiproject.org>
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Building Sakai] How to checkout the
>> 2.9.0 tag source
>> >>> including all tagged indie source?
>> >>>
>> >>> The "deploy" modules are not externals, they are
>> actually *in* the
>> >>> directory, see
>> >>> https://source.sakaiproject.org/svn/sakai/tags/sakai-2.9.0/
>> >>>
>> >>> there is
>> >>> core-deploy/
>> >>> framework-shared-deploy/
>> >>> jstl-shared-deploy/
>> >>> kernel-deploy/
>> >>>
>> >>> In the 2.9.x-all there is only deploy (which
>> deploys a few non-sakai
>> >>> things into common and shared) and
>> jstl-shared-deploy (which deploys a few
>> >>> jstl things)
>> >>>
>> >>> With these 3 extra directory, the sakai:deploy
>> could download the
>> >>> assemblies in the repository and use those as
>> part of the build. You'll
>> >>> either need to remove those from the base pom or
>> remove specific pieces you
>> >>> don't want from their individual poms. It's
>> possible that it could grab
>> >>> assemblies that you build from your local
>> repository but it still might
>> >>> check for updates on Sonatype and use those
>> instead. (Unless you have
>> >>> different versions built and defined in master,
>> then it would be forced to
>> >>> use those of course)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:25 AM, Gast, Cynthia
>> (cmw6s)
>> >>> <cmw6s at eservices.virginia.edu
>> <mailto:cmw6s at eservices.virginia.edu>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hello Steve and Matthew:
>> >>>> I'm attaching a file for your review, hopefully
>> it will allow for the
>> >>>> checkout of all source for the 2.9.0 tag
>> release, including the source for
>> >>>> all indie projects.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It is a combination of the current 2.9.0-tag
>> externals, plus all the
>> >>>> indies 'tag' releases as also represented in the
>> externals file from
>> >>>> Matthew.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I don't see the various "*-deploy" projects
>> specifically listed, so I'm
>> >>>> assuming these will come along as they normally
>> do with the 2.9.0-tag
>> >>>> checkout?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'm looking at this as a way to checkout (or
>> export) the source for all
>> >>>> projects in the release. Building same will be
>> the next step :-)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks for your willingness to help with this -
>> I'd love to have a
>> >>>> one-step source checkout. Let me know when I
>> should attempt a checkout for
>> >>>> all tag release source.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> Cindy @ UVa
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ________________________________
>> >>>> From: sakai-dev-bounces at collab.sakaiproject.org
>> <mailto:sakai-dev-bounces at collab.sakaiproject.org>
>> >>>> [sakai-dev-bounces at collab.sakaiproject.org
>> <mailto:sakai-dev-bounces at collab.sakaiproject.org>]
>> on behalf of Gast, Cynthia
>> >>>> (cmw6s) [cmw6s at eservices.virginia.edu
>> <mailto:cmw6s at eservices.virginia.edu>]
>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:53 AM
>> >>>> To: Steve Swinsburg; Matthew Jones
>> >>>> Cc: sakai-dev at collab.sakaiproject.org
>> <mailto:sakai-dev at collab.sakaiproject.org>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Building Sakai] How to checkout
>> the 2.9.0 tag source
>> >>>> including all tagged indie source?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks Steve!
>> >>>> I'll make a stab at the externals this morning,
>> send it to you both --
>> >>>> let you put it in place and I'll be happy to try
>> it once you say so.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cindy
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ________________________________
>> >>>> From: Steve Swinsburg [steve.swinsburg at gmail.com
>> <mailto:steve.swinsburg at gmail.com>]
>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 6:40 AM
>> >>>> To: Matthew Jones
>> >>>> Cc: Gast, Cynthia
>> (cmw6s); sakai-dev at collab.sakaiproject.org
>> <mailto:sakai-dev at collab.sakaiproject.org>
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Building Sakai] How to checkout
>> the 2.9.0 tag source
>> >>>> including all tagged indie source?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It should be pretty easy to just create a
>> .externals that points to the
>> >>>> various tags instead of the branch, using the
>> tagged 2.9.0 one as a base,
>> >>>> then adding in the indie tags. Then combine that
>> with the tagged version of
>> >>>> core-deploy and the main pom and its done.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'd imagine that is what Chris was suggesting,
>> rather than specific
>> >>>> revisions from the branch.
>> >>>> If it wasn't late in the eve I'd do it.
>> Chris/Cynthia if you dont get to
>> >>>> it before Friday, I'll get onto this.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> cheers,
>> >>>> Steve
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Matthew Jones
>> <matthew at longsight.com <mailto:matthew at longsight.com>>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I'd just use the 2.9.x-all branch. If you used
>> 2.9.0 you'd have to mess
>> >>>>> around too much with the core-deploy and change
>> too many other versions.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> If you wanted to lock it down to specific
>> revisions, you'd want to have
>> >>>>> an msub in svn and make a copy of the 2.9.x-all
>> branch, then either manually
>> >>>>> or with some script go down each external and
>> set it to the revision which
>> >>>>> was tagged for 2.9.0
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> #Pseudocode
>> >>>>> foreach external in 2.9.x-all {
>> >>>>> do a regex of 2.9.x to 2.9.0
>> >>>>> svn info on the 2.9.0 revision
>> >>>>> print back revision number in the external
>> >>>>> }
>> >>>>> svn propset external
>> >>>>> svn commit
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I had a script that *kind of* did this for
>> Michigan, but it set the
>> >>>>> latest 2.9.x revision, and I had to manually
>> bump it back if we didn't want
>> >>>>> that version.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> https://source.sakaiproject.org/svn/msub/umich.edu/ctools/builds/trunk/tools/versionSetter.pl
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I didn't think it would take more than an hour
>> to write this script, it
>> >>>>> ended up taking a little more than 2 hours
>> because the poms are pretty
>> >>>>> inconsistent. The names of the artifactId don't
>> always match the names of
>> >>>>> the directory they're in, not all poms have
>> version tags in them (so they
>> >>>>> inherit from the master, this is mostly true
>> for the ones in core) and the
>> >>>>> core is still on a 2 digit version.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> However the versions for core and indies for
>> 2.9.0 should be correct in
>> >>>>> this externals
>> >>>>> https://source.sakaiproject.org/contrib/cle-release/scripts/externals/
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Then if you did want some newer version you
>> could just update it.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> What was your suggestion, Chris?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 2:45 PM, Gast, Cynthia
>> (cmw6s)
>> >>>>> <cmw6s at eservices.virginia.edu
>> <mailto:cmw6s at eservices.virginia.edu>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Hello:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> We are setting up for our 2.9.0 upgrade. We
>> need source for all the
>> >>>>>> projects. First, I exported the 2.9.0 tag,
>> but this only provides source
>> >>>>>> for some projects (as has been discussed); all
>> indie project tagged source
>> >>>>>> would have to be acquired still. I took a
>> look at the checkout using the
>> >>>>>> 2.9.x-all branches (svn export
>> >>>>>> https://source.sakaiproject.org/svn/sakai/branches/sakai-2.9.x-all/
>> >>>>>> ./2.9.x-all). I see the externals is set to
>> the trunk branches. So while
>> >>>>>> it does allow me to acquire source for all the
>> core + indie projects, it is
>> >>>>>> source from trunk (with pom files referring to
>> SNAPSHOT versions).
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Has anyone created an externals that allows
>> one to export the source
>> >>>>>> for the 2.9.0 tag plus the tag versions of the
>> indies that make it up? ... a
>> >>>>>> 2.9.0-all ? This would be a huge help to
>> those of us who do build all
>> >>>>>> source.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> If not, would it help if I created the
>> externals file to allow us to do
>> >>>>>> this? Otherwise, I'll go get each indie's
>> source one-by-one according to
>> >>>>>> the version tag.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thanks for considering this,
>> >>>>>> Cynthia Gast
>> >>>>>> UVa Sakai development team
>> >>>>>> cmw6s at virginia.edu <mailto:cmw6s at virginia.edu>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>> >>>>>> sakai-dev at collab.sakaiproject.org
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--
Daniel Merino Echeverría
daniel.merino at unavarra.es
Gestor de teleformación - Centro Superior de Innovación Educativa.
Tfno: 948-168489 - Universidad Pública de Navarra.
--
Antes al pueblo se le daba "pan y circo"; actualmente, gracias al
progreso, se le vende "pan y circo". (Perich)
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