[WG: Accessibility] [Management] 2.7.0: FckEditor upgrade to CK3.0.1

Ken Petri petri.1 at osu.edu
Tue Nov 3 10:31:15 PST 2009 

Hi Hadi,

Look for the "format" menu in the toolbar. It's about 5 controls from the
end of the toolbar. The dropdown has a list of headings. When you are in the
toolbar, right-arrow until you hear "format format." Hit the space bar
expose the options. You can select an option using up and down arrow keys.
Once an option is selected, the Escape collapses the dropdown and will read
aloud your selection.

This brings up another point: Whatever the installation in Sakai, it should
limit the menu options and probably get rid of the text sizing
functionality, since it encourages non-semantic code.

One other thing, when I go full-screen with the editor, I lose the keyboard
shortcuts for focusing the toolbar. Also, I find in JAWS that it is much
easier to JAWS + z and switch off the Virtual PC Cursor when in the app.
This is *not* what the CKEditor website recommends. It recommends periodic
refreshing of the buffer with JAWS + ESC. This didn't work as well for me.

The upshot is these editors are tricky to use for screen reader reliant
users, though not bad for keyboard-only users.

Though I'm not involved in the Sakai Access WG except as a lurker (and now a
poster, I guess), my ultimate recommendation would be to offer an option to
use Textile or WikiText or Markdown or some similar text based/interpreted
for content editors.

Best,
ken
-----


On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Hadi Rangin <hadi at illinois.edu> wrote:

>  Hi Ken,
>
> CKEditor looks promissing.
> I installed it at my home server and was looking at the sample page at:
>
> http://bargirangin.com/ckeditor/_samples/replacebyclass.html
>
> On the toolbar I don't see any commands for creating headings which is
> essential for structuring content. I can go to the Source mode and edit the
> source code but it seems I can't find headings markup commands on the
> toolbar.
>
> Do you know by chance where they can be found and if the items on the
> toolbar configurable. As you know some markups like bold or italic, etc. are
> undesireable.
>
> Thanks,
> Hadi
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>  *From:* Ken Petri <petri.1 at osu.edu>
> *To:* Richwine, Brian L <brichwin at indiana.edu>
> *Cc:* management at collab.sakaiproject.org ; Sakai Accessibility WG<accessibility at collab.sakaiproject.org>; Clay
> Fenlason <clay.fenlason at et.gatech.edu>
>  *Sent:* Monday, November 02, 2009 4:12 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [WG: Accessibility] [Management] 2.7.0: FckEditor upgrade
> to CK3.0.1
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> Gave it a once over and: Yes, it works with both keyboard and screen
> reader, much like TinyMCE, that is, you must use special keystrokes to get
> into the toolbar and path bar.
>
> All of the controls in the full toolbar are labeled and read properly and
> the behaviors for the dropdowns are expected.
>
> Here is the book on it:
> http://docs.cksource.com/CKEditor_3.x/Accessibility and it seems to check
> out.
>
> Tested in Firefox 3.5 only, with keyboard and with JAWS. The trick in JAWS
> is to turn off the Virtual PC Cursor. In other words, treat it like an
> application rather than "regular" HTML content. It would be nice if they
> used some ARIA to cause JAWS to switch into an application mode rather than
> requiring the user to do it manually, but, still, it works. (BTW, using JAWS
> 11.)
>
> I also tried it in NVDA and NVDA hobbles through it. This is probably an
> NVDA problem, since I'm using the latest beta rather than a stable build.
>
> Summary: This looks as good as or perhaps better than TinyMCE with regard
> to access.
>
> It would make sense for Sakai to adopt it--after testing it out with more
> users than me, of course :-)
>
> Cheers,
> ken
> -------------------------------------------------------
>  Ken Petri
>  Program Director
>  OSU Web Accessibility Center
>  102D Pomerene Hall
>  1760 Neil Avenue
>  Columbus, Ohio  43210
>  Phone: (614) 292-1760
>  Fax: (614) 292-4190
>  mailto:petri.1 at osu.edu
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 4:23 PM, Richwine, Brian L <brichwin at indiana.edu>wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> We would be happy to perform an accessibility evaluation on the new
>> CKEditor if one is needed. We can check it against our normal accessibility
>> testing protocol as well as a functional test with JAWS and WindowEyes.
>>
>> -Brian
>>
>>
>> Brian Richwine
>> Adaptive Technology Support Specialist
>> Adaptive Technology and Accessibility Centers
>> Indiana University - Bloomington/Indianapolis
>> http://iuadapts.indiana.edu
>> (812) 856-4112
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: accessibility-bounces at collab.sakaiproject.org [mailto:
>> accessibility-bounces at collab.sakaiproject.org] On Behalf Of Eli Cochran
>> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 4:20 PM
>> To: elledge at msu.edu
>> Cc: management at collab.sakaiproject.org; Sakai Accessibility WG; Clay
>> Fenlason
>> Subject: Re: [WG: Accessibility] [Management] 2.7.0: FckEditor upgrade to
>> CK 3.0.1
>>
>> Mike,
>> Has anyone in the accessibility community evaluated the new CKEditor
>> to determine if it really does deliver on the promise of being more
>> accessible?
>>
>> - Eli
>>
>> On Nov 2, 2009, at 7:00 AM, Mike Elledge wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Everyone--
>> >
>> > FCKeditor has been a such a critical accessibility issue for sooooo
>> > lonnnnggggg that it would be a huge win for Sakai if you could
>> > update to a more accessible version. I realize that it touches many
>> > areas of Sakai, so it isn't a trivial change. Nonetheless, it would
>> > be very welcome.
>> >
>> > Thanks!
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>> > Clay Fenlason wrote:
>> >> At first glance I would say the real issue here is the maintenance
>> >> one: what the scope of QA would be, given the ubiquity of the editor.
>> >> It's not entirely comforting to think of this as a drive-by drop in
>> >> from Josh without a commitment to fix issues that may surface during
>> >> QA (if I'm reading the email thread right), but again that seems to
>> >> me
>> >> the sort of call that a combination of technical review and QA
>> >> leadership should resolve in community discussion.  Maybe even - dare
>> >> I say it - a good issue for a maintenance team to weigh in on.
>> >>
>> >> That said, if I look at what CKEditor 3.0 is all about, I find the
>> >> following:
>> >>
>> >> http://ckeditor.com/blog/CKEditor_3.0_is_here
>> >>
>> >> ... which includes "Brand New UI" and "New Javascript API." I still
>> >> think a maintenance/QA review should take the lead on these kinds of
>> >> questions, not the product council as a general rule, but CKEditor
>> >> 3.0
>> >> is clearly more than just a bugfix release, and should be discussed
>> >> on-list before inclusion.
>> >>
>> >> ~Clay
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Anthony Whyte <arwhyte at umich.edu>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Councillors--Josh Ryan suggests that we consider for 2.7.0
>> >>> upgrading the
>> >>> FckEditor (currently 2.6.4) to the renamed CK 3.0.1.  I replied to
>> >>> him that
>> >>> such an upgrade (considering it's wide-ranging impact across the
>> >>> tool set)
>> >>> might require consideration by the Product Council.  "Might" is the
>> >>> operative word here since it is unclear to me at present if such
>> >>> an upgrade
>> >>> requires Product Council approval given that it may well fall into
>> >>> the
>> >>> "maintenance" category.  Your views on this question would be
>> >>> appreciated.
>> >>> Cheers,
>> >>> Anth
>> >>> Begin forwarded message:
>> >>>
>> >>> From: Noah Botimer <botimer at umich.edu>
>> >>> Date: October 30, 2009 12:56:14 PM EDT
>> >>> To: Anthony Whyte <arwhyte at umich.edu>
>> >>> Cc: Joshua Ryan <josh at asu.edu>, Clay Fenlason <
>> clay.fenlason at et.gatech.edu
>> >>> >
>> >>> Subject: Re: 2.7.0 textarea (new feature freeze 12 Nov 2009)
>> >>> I think this is worth serious investigation. Although it is new
>> >>> code from
>> >>> them, we're talking about a Sakai release with a long lifetime.
>> >>> Their 2.6
>> >>> branch has been stagnant for quite a while and they've been
>> >>> addressing many
>> >>> issues in the new line (notably accessibility and abysmal
>> >>> performance).
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't know how I would classify it in relation to the new
>> >>> process. R&D?
>> >>> Incubation? Product Development? Maintenance?
>> >>>
>> >>> Since there is already the pluggable editor functionality, it may
>> >>> even be
>> >>> possible to include it as an option (maybe the default), rather
>> >>> than a
>> >>> replacement. That might free us up for some process options.
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >>> -Noah
>> >>>
>> >>> On Oct 30, 2009, at 12:09 PM, Anthony Whyte wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> CK 3 sounds good but we've got a new development process overseen
>> >>> by the
>> >>> Product Council and I imagine they might need to approve such a
>> >>> change.  I'm
>> >>> cc'ing Clay and Noah (who has a long interest in FCK) for their
>> >>> thoughts.
>> >>>
>> >>> Cheers,
>> >>>
>> >>> Anth
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Oct 30, 2009, at 11:58 AM, Joshua Ryan wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hey Anthony,
>> >>>
>> >>> . . . I don't really foresee having time to do much for 2.7.0,
>> >>>
>> >>> however the latest version of the FCKeditor (3.01, now called
>> >>>
>> >>> CKeditor) is pretty damn nice. It's substantially faster and it's
>> >>>
>> >>> finally fully accessible! So if I can scrap together some time that
>> >>>
>> >>> could be a very nice change but I really can't promise anything
>> >>> and I
>> >>>
>> >>> wouldn't want to hold things up at all. How about I try to sneak
>> >>> it in
>> >>>
>> >>> this weekend and if I don't get most of the way done by Monday then
>> >>>
>> >>> just pretend I didn't mention it and branch when ever you want.
>> >>>
>> >>> /Josh
>> >>>
>> >>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 7:54 AM, Anthony Whyte <arwhyte at umich.edu>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Josh--I may well be taking on Pete Peterson's Foundation QA
>> >>> oversight role
>> >>>
>> >>> on an interim basis through the release of 2.7.0 in my capacity as
>> >>> release
>> >>>
>> >>> manager.  As a first step I would like to propose that we impose a
>> >>> feature
>> >>>
>> >>> freeze on core trunk code intended for 2.7.0 earlier than Pete's
>> >>> original
>> >>>
>> >>> proposal included below.  If I could, I'd say let's freeze
>> >>> tomorrow and I'll
>> >>>
>> >>> create the 2.7.x branch.  But instead I'd like to impose a feature
>> >>> freeze on
>> >>>
>> >>> Thursday, 12 November 2009, 8:00 pm EST and then create the 2.7.x
>> >>>
>> >>> immediately thereafter.  That is two weeks from now.
>> >>>
>> >>> Projects on an independent release track will not be affected by
>> >>> this date
>> >>>
>> >>> (e.g., msgcntr) although we need those teams to start putting out
>> >>> stable
>> >>>
>> >>> releases (binding to snapshot versions is not acceptable in a
>> >>> release).  A
>> >>>
>> >>> freeze on message bundles can occur later.  Bug fixes can of
>> >>> course continue
>> >>>
>> >>> to flow from trunk into 2.7.x unhindered until we decide on a
>> >>> release
>> >>>
>> >>> candidate date, when bugs will be triaged thereafter (e.g.,
>> >>> blockers,
>> >>>
>> >>> critical fixes get priority).
>> >>>
>> >>> So for textarea would such a date work for you?  If not can you
>> >>> summarize
>> >>>
>> >>> for me new features that you intend to add that make this date
>> >>> problematic
>> >>>
>> >>> for you.
>> >>>
>> >>> Cheers,
>> >>>
>> >>> Anthony
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
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>> >>> management at collab.sakaiproject.org
>> >>> http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/management
>> >>>
>> >>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send email to
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>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >>
>> > <melledge.vcf>_______________________________________________
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>> . . . . . . . . . . .  .  .   .    .      .         .              .
>>               .
>>
>> Eli Cochran
>> user interaction developer
>> ETS, UC Berkeley
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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