[sakai2-tcc] TCC Meeting at Sakai Conference [ was 'Annotation based injection within Sakai components']
Beth Kirschner
bkirschn at umich.edu
Fri May 18 07:01:07 PDT 2012
Last year we had 'facilitators' for each topic on the agenda, and I think this went really well. Do we want to do this again? If so, should we ask for volunteers for each topic?
- Beth
On May 17, 2012, at 9:39 AM, Aaron Zeckoski wrote:
> For everyone:
>
> Just an FYI that I am going to be adjusting the order to try to put it
> in order of priority (with the less contentious stuff being placed
> early in the agenda).
>
> If you disagree with my ordering then please feel free to yell at me
> on list (or hit me on IM) but do me a favor and don't just adjust it
> without talking to me (or you may find I keep on switching it back).
>
> -AZ
>
>
> On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Steve Swinsburg
> <steve.swinsburg at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Great, thanks Aaron. I've fleshed it out with everything that's been on my
>> mind. Can cull/review the list as req'd.
>>
>> cheers,
>> S
>>
>> On 17/05/2012, at 9:18 PM, Aaron Zeckoski wrote:
>>
>> I created a confluence page for the TCC conference meetings so please
>> feel free to go crazy with adding topics to the agenda. I put some of
>> these on there and I will leave it to others to flesh out the list
>> (for now anyway).
>>
>> https://confluence.sakaiproject.org/x/gIXSB
>>
>> -AZ
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Steve Swinsburg
>> <steve.swinsburg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I go to sleep and this happens! We are a passionate bunch :)
>>
>>
>> Chuck's list is good and I expect some healthy discussions and decisions to
>>
>> come out of the TCC meetings at the conference. Last year's discussions were
>>
>> great, we got real work done. Go us!
>>
>>
>> I would, however, really like to make some technology changes that allow us
>>
>> to move our stack into this decade *without* breaking everything.
>>
>>
>> Back to David's list:
>>
>>
>> 1) Spring 3
>>
>> 2) Moving to the tomcat 6/7 classloader layout
>>
>> 3) Removal of deprecated API methods
>>
>> [4) anything I missed?]
>>
>>
>> Out of these what would be non breaking changes?
>>
>>
>> 1. I haven't fully investigated yet but from the patch attached to KNL-517
>>
>> it looks like it is just dependencies. Are there any code changes?
>>
>>
>> 2. Doable with the Sakai Maven plugin - reduces additional Tomcat config
>>
>> required. Tools that bind to newer versions of CLE would automatically be
>>
>> deployed that way, tools that bind to older releases would be deployed in
>>
>> the old layout. Backwards compatible.
>>
>>
>> 3. Depending on what this is it may be more disruptive. Risk mitigated
>>
>> somewhat by documenting how people move from one to another. I'm easily
>>
>> swung to *not* have this included and then contrib tools live happily ever
>>
>> after.
>>
>>
>> 4. Could be keeping our shared libraries up to date, which we are generally
>>
>> quite good at anyway. Maybe a review/cleanup.
>>
>>
>> I've just finished running a 10 week bootcamp course here and the top two
>>
>> feedback criticisms were that we had to use older versions of things when
>>
>> developing in Sakai, AND the tomcat restart issue. It would be nice if we
>>
>> could make that a bit easier for people without requiring a whole re-write.
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> On 17/05/2012, at 5:52 AM, Nate Angell wrote:
>>
>>
>> I wrote a Drupal module ;)
>>
>>
>> = nate
>>
>>
>> On May 16, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Charles Severance <csev at umich.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 16, 2012, at 11:48 AM, Matthew Jones wrote:
>>
>>
>> Well, how long does it take a new developer who has never used Sakai
>>
>> Services before to write a new tool that integrates with
>>
>> assignment/gradebook/assessments/calendar/entitybroker.
>>
>>
>> My guess would easily be months. So this makes/keeps the development pool
>>
>> for Sakai small (a fixed ~10-15 devs?)
>>
>>
>>
>> Matt - How many developers are waiting in the wings to work on the CLE where
>>
>> the ease of learning is the reason they are not coding? Zero. Lets not
>>
>> solve a problem we don't have and break all the contrib tools.
>>
>>
>> OAE spent five years claiming to make it easier to have new developers write
>>
>> tools - they have made this a core theme of their design and have not
>>
>> achieved "easy to learn".
>>
>>
>> Facebook FBML is a mess and hard to learn...
>>
>>
>> Moodle Modules are a total pain.
>>
>>
>> Building Blocks ... Aargh. You pretty much need a mentor on the inside who
>>
>> looks at Bb source code when you get stuck.
>>
>>
>> OLAT extension point is elegant but massively painful.
>>
>>
>> The simple answer is that none of these "internal" extension points work.
>>
>> It is silly to try to make Sakai CLE extensions "easy" by changing the
>>
>> kernel. No major LMS has produced an extension point that is both powerful
>>
>> and easy.
>>
>>
>> LTI is easy. But not all-powerful.
>>
>>
>> /Chuck
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> sakai2-tcc mailing list
>>
>> sakai2-tcc at collab.sakaiproject.org
>>
>> http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/sakai2-tcc
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> sakai2-tcc mailing list
>>
>> sakai2-tcc at collab.sakaiproject.org
>>
>> http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/sakai2-tcc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> sakai2-tcc mailing list
>>
>> sakai2-tcc at collab.sakaiproject.org
>>
>> http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/sakai2-tcc
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Aaron Zeckoski - Software Architect - http://tinyurl.com/azprofile
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> From: Aaron Zeckoski <azeckoski at unicon.net>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [sakai2-tcc] Annotation based injection within Sakai components
>>
>> Date: 17 May 2012 9:18:31 PM AEST
>>
>> To: Steve Swinsburg <steve.swinsburg at gmail.com>
>>
>> Cc: sakai2-tcc Committee <sakai2-tcc at collab.sakaiproject.org>
>>
>>
>> I created a confluence page for the TCC conference meetings so please
>> feel free to go crazy with adding topics to the agenda. I put some of
>> these on there and I will leave it to others to flesh out the list
>> (for now anyway).
>>
>> https://confluence.sakaiproject.org/x/gIXSB
>>
>> -AZ
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Steve Swinsburg
>> <steve.swinsburg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I go to sleep and this happens! We are a passionate bunch :)
>>
>>
>> Chuck's list is good and I expect some healthy discussions and decisions to
>>
>> come out of the TCC meetings at the conference. Last year's discussions were
>>
>> great, we got real work done. Go us!
>>
>>
>> I would, however, really like to make some technology changes that allow us
>>
>> to move our stack into this decade *without* breaking everything.
>>
>>
>> Back to David's list:
>>
>>
>> 1) Spring 3
>>
>> 2) Moving to the tomcat 6/7 classloader layout
>>
>> 3) Removal of deprecated API methods
>>
>> [4) anything I missed?]
>>
>>
>> Out of these what would be non breaking changes?
>>
>>
>> 1. I haven't fully investigated yet but from the patch attached to KNL-517
>>
>> it looks like it is just dependencies. Are there any code changes?
>>
>>
>> 2. Doable with the Sakai Maven plugin - reduces additional Tomcat config
>>
>> required. Tools that bind to newer versions of CLE would automatically be
>>
>> deployed that way, tools that bind to older releases would be deployed in
>>
>> the old layout. Backwards compatible.
>>
>>
>> 3. Depending on what this is it may be more disruptive. Risk mitigated
>>
>> somewhat by documenting how people move from one to another. I'm easily
>>
>> swung to *not* have this included and then contrib tools live happily ever
>>
>> after.
>>
>>
>> 4. Could be keeping our shared libraries up to date, which we are generally
>>
>> quite good at anyway. Maybe a review/cleanup.
>>
>>
>> I've just finished running a 10 week bootcamp course here and the top two
>>
>> feedback criticisms were that we had to use older versions of things when
>>
>> developing in Sakai, AND the tomcat restart issue. It would be nice if we
>>
>> could make that a bit easier for people without requiring a whole re-write.
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> On 17/05/2012, at 5:52 AM, Nate Angell wrote:
>>
>>
>> I wrote a Drupal module ;)
>>
>>
>> = nate
>>
>>
>> On May 16, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Charles Severance <csev at umich.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 16, 2012, at 11:48 AM, Matthew Jones wrote:
>>
>>
>> Well, how long does it take a new developer who has never used Sakai
>>
>> Services before to write a new tool that integrates with
>>
>> assignment/gradebook/assessments/calendar/entitybroker.
>>
>>
>> My guess would easily be months. So this makes/keeps the development pool
>>
>> for Sakai small (a fixed ~10-15 devs?)
>>
>>
>>
>> Matt - How many developers are waiting in the wings to work on the CLE where
>>
>> the ease of learning is the reason they are not coding? Zero. Lets not
>>
>> solve a problem we don't have and break all the contrib tools.
>>
>>
>> OAE spent five years claiming to make it easier to have new developers write
>>
>> tools - they have made this a core theme of their design and have not
>>
>> achieved "easy to learn".
>>
>>
>> Facebook FBML is a mess and hard to learn...
>>
>>
>> Moodle Modules are a total pain.
>>
>>
>> Building Blocks ... Aargh. You pretty much need a mentor on the inside who
>>
>> looks at Bb source code when you get stuck.
>>
>>
>> OLAT extension point is elegant but massively painful.
>>
>>
>> The simple answer is that none of these "internal" extension points work.
>>
>> It is silly to try to make Sakai CLE extensions "easy" by changing the
>>
>> kernel. No major LMS has produced an extension point that is both powerful
>>
>> and easy.
>>
>>
>> LTI is easy. But not all-powerful.
>>
>>
>> /Chuck
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> sakai2-tcc mailing list
>>
>> sakai2-tcc at collab.sakaiproject.org
>>
>> http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/sakai2-tcc
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> sakai2-tcc mailing list
>>
>> sakai2-tcc at collab.sakaiproject.org
>>
>> http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/sakai2-tcc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> sakai2-tcc mailing list
>>
>> sakai2-tcc at collab.sakaiproject.org
>>
>> http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/sakai2-tcc
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Aaron Zeckoski - Software Architect - http://tinyurl.com/azprofile
>>
>>
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> From: Aaron Zeckoski <azeckoski at unicon.net>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [sakai2-tcc] Annotation based injection within Sakai components
>>
>> Date: 17 May 2012 9:18:31 PM AEST
>>
>> To: Steve Swinsburg <steve.swinsburg at gmail.com>
>>
>> Cc: sakai2-tcc Committee <sakai2-tcc at collab.sakaiproject.org>
>>
>>
>> I created a confluence page for the TCC conference meetings so please
>> feel free to go crazy with adding topics to the agenda. I put some of
>> these on there and I will leave it to others to flesh out the list
>> (for now anyway).
>>
>> https://confluence.sakaiproject.org/x/gIXSB
>>
>> -AZ
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Steve Swinsburg
>> <steve.swinsburg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I go to sleep and this happens! We are a passionate bunch :)
>>
>>
>> Chuck's list is good and I expect some healthy discussions and decisions to
>>
>> come out of the TCC meetings at the conference. Last year's discussions were
>>
>> great, we got real work done. Go us!
>>
>>
>> I would, however, really like to make some technology changes that allow us
>>
>> to move our stack into this decade *without* breaking everything.
>>
>>
>> Back to David's list:
>>
>>
>> 1) Spring 3
>>
>> 2) Moving to the tomcat 6/7 classloader layout
>>
>> 3) Removal of deprecated API methods
>>
>> [4) anything I missed?]
>>
>>
>> Out of these what would be non breaking changes?
>>
>>
>> 1. I haven't fully investigated yet but from the patch attached to KNL-517
>>
>> it looks like it is just dependencies. Are there any code changes?
>>
>>
>> 2. Doable with the Sakai Maven plugin - reduces additional Tomcat config
>>
>> required. Tools that bind to newer versions of CLE would automatically be
>>
>> deployed that way, tools that bind to older releases would be deployed in
>>
>> the old layout. Backwards compatible.
>>
>>
>> 3. Depending on what this is it may be more disruptive. Risk mitigated
>>
>> somewhat by documenting how people move from one to another. I'm easily
>>
>> swung to *not* have this included and then contrib tools live happily ever
>>
>> after.
>>
>>
>> 4. Could be keeping our shared libraries up to date, which we are generally
>>
>> quite good at anyway. Maybe a review/cleanup.
>>
>>
>> I've just finished running a 10 week bootcamp course here and the top two
>>
>> feedback criticisms were that we had to use older versions of things when
>>
>> developing in Sakai, AND the tomcat restart issue. It would be nice if we
>>
>> could make that a bit easier for people without requiring a whole re-write.
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> On 17/05/2012, at 5:52 AM, Nate Angell wrote:
>>
>>
>> I wrote a Drupal module ;)
>>
>>
>> = nate
>>
>>
>> On May 16, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Charles Severance <csev at umich.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 16, 2012, at 11:48 AM, Matthew Jones wrote:
>>
>>
>> Well, how long does it take a new developer who has never used Sakai
>>
>> Services before to write a new tool that integrates with
>>
>> assignment/gradebook/assessments/calendar/entitybroker.
>>
>>
>> My guess would easily be months. So this makes/keeps the development pool
>>
>> for Sakai small (a fixed ~10-15 devs?)
>>
>>
>>
>> Matt - How many developers are waiting in the wings to work on the CLE where
>>
>> the ease of learning is the reason they are not coding? Zero. Lets not
>>
>> solve a problem we don't have and break all the contrib tools.
>>
>>
>> OAE spent five years claiming to make it easier to have new developers write
>>
>> tools - they have made this a core theme of their design and have not
>>
>> achieved "easy to learn".
>>
>>
>> Facebook FBML is a mess and hard to learn...
>>
>>
>> Moodle Modules are a total pain.
>>
>>
>> Building Blocks ... Aargh. You pretty much need a mentor on the inside who
>>
>> looks at Bb source code when you get stuck.
>>
>>
>> OLAT extension point is elegant but massively painful.
>>
>>
>> The simple answer is that none of these "internal" extension points work.
>>
>> It is silly to try to make Sakai CLE extensions "easy" by changing the
>>
>> kernel. No major LMS has produced an extension point that is both powerful
>>
>> and easy.
>>
>>
>> LTI is easy. But not all-powerful.
>>
>>
>> /Chuck
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> sakai2-tcc mailing list
>>
>> sakai2-tcc at collab.sakaiproject.org
>>
>> http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/sakai2-tcc
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> sakai2-tcc mailing list
>>
>> sakai2-tcc at collab.sakaiproject.org
>>
>> http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/sakai2-tcc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> sakai2-tcc mailing list
>>
>> sakai2-tcc at collab.sakaiproject.org
>>
>> http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/sakai2-tcc
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Aaron Zeckoski - Software Architect - http://tinyurl.com/azprofile
>>
>>
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> From: Aaron Zeckoski <azeckoski at unicon.net>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [sakai2-tcc] Annotation based injection within Sakai components
>>
>> Date: 17 May 2012 9:18:31 PM AEST
>>
>> To: Steve Swinsburg <steve.swinsburg at gmail.com>
>>
>> Cc: sakai2-tcc Committee <sakai2-tcc at collab.sakaiproject.org>
>>
>>
>> I created a confluence page for the TCC conference meetings so please
>> feel free to go crazy with adding topics to the agenda. I put some of
>> these on there and I will leave it to others to flesh out the list
>> (for now anyway).
>>
>> https://confluence.sakaiproject.org/x/gIXSB
>>
>> -AZ
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Steve Swinsburg
>> <steve.swinsburg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I go to sleep and this happens! We are a passionate bunch :)
>>
>>
>> Chuck's list is good and I expect some healthy discussions and decisions to
>>
>> come out of the TCC meetings at the conference. Last year's discussions were
>>
>> great, we got real work done. Go us!
>>
>>
>> I would, however, really like to make some technology changes that allow us
>>
>> to move our stack into this decade *without* breaking everything.
>>
>>
>> Back to David's list:
>>
>>
>> 1) Spring 3
>>
>> 2) Moving to the tomcat 6/7 classloader layout
>>
>> 3) Removal of deprecated API methods
>>
>> [4) anything I missed?]
>>
>>
>> Out of these what would be non breaking changes?
>>
>>
>> 1. I haven't fully investigated yet but from the patch attached to KNL-517
>>
>> it looks like it is just dependencies. Are there any code changes?
>>
>>
>> 2. Doable with the Sakai Maven plugin - reduces additional Tomcat config
>>
>> required. Tools that bind to newer versions of CLE would automatically be
>>
>> deployed that way, tools that bind to older releases would be deployed in
>>
>> the old layout. Backwards compatible.
>>
>>
>> 3. Depending on what this is it may be more disruptive. Risk mitigated
>>
>> somewhat by documenting how people move from one to another. I'm easily
>>
>> swung to *not* have this included and then contrib tools live happily ever
>>
>> after.
>>
>>
>> 4. Could be keeping our shared libraries up to date, which we are generally
>>
>> quite good at anyway. Maybe a review/cleanup.
>>
>>
>> I've just finished running a 10 week bootcamp course here and the top two
>>
>> feedback criticisms were that we had to use older versions of things when
>>
>> developing in Sakai, AND the tomcat restart issue. It would be nice if we
>>
>> could make that a bit easier for people without requiring a whole re-write.
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> On 17/05/2012, at 5:52 AM, Nate Angell wrote:
>>
>>
>> I wrote a Drupal module ;)
>>
>>
>> = nate
>>
>>
>> On May 16, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Charles Severance <csev at umich.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 16, 2012, at 11:48 AM, Matthew Jones wrote:
>>
>>
>> Well, how long does it take a new developer who has never used Sakai
>>
>> Services before to write a new tool that integrates with
>>
>> assignment/gradebook/assessments/calendar/entitybroker.
>>
>>
>> My guess would easily be months. So this makes/keeps the development pool
>>
>> for Sakai small (a fixed ~10-15 devs?)
>>
>>
>>
>> Matt - How many developers are waiting in the wings to work on the CLE where
>>
>> the ease of learning is the reason they are not coding? Zero. Lets not
>>
>> solve a problem we don't have and break all the contrib tools.
>>
>>
>> OAE spent five years claiming to make it easier to have new developers write
>>
>> tools - they have made this a core theme of their design and have not
>>
>> achieved "easy to learn".
>>
>>
>> Facebook FBML is a mess and hard to learn...
>>
>>
>> Moodle Modules are a total pain.
>>
>>
>> Building Blocks ... Aargh. You pretty much need a mentor on the inside who
>>
>> looks at Bb source code when you get stuck.
>>
>>
>> OLAT extension point is elegant but massively painful.
>>
>>
>> The simple answer is that none of these "internal" extension points work.
>>
>> It is silly to try to make Sakai CLE extensions "easy" by changing the
>>
>> kernel. No major LMS has produced an extension point that is both powerful
>>
>> and easy.
>>
>>
>> LTI is easy. But not all-powerful.
>>
>>
>> /Chuck
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> sakai2-tcc mailing list
>>
>> sakai2-tcc at collab.sakaiproject.org
>>
>> http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/sakai2-tcc
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> sakai2-tcc mailing list
>>
>> sakai2-tcc at collab.sakaiproject.org
>>
>> http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/sakai2-tcc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> sakai2-tcc mailing list
>>
>> sakai2-tcc at collab.sakaiproject.org
>>
>> http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/sakai2-tcc
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Aaron Zeckoski - Software Architect - http://tinyurl.com/azprofile
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sakai2-tcc mailing list
>> sakai2-tcc at collab.sakaiproject.org
>> http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/sakai2-tcc
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Aaron Zeckoski - Software Architect - http://tinyurl.com/azprofile
> _______________________________________________
> sakai2-tcc mailing list
> sakai2-tcc at collab.sakaiproject.org
> http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/sakai2-tcc
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