[Building Sakai] Oxford Citations Helper work

Thu Jun 28 02:05:27 PDT 2012

Thanks. I've voted !

On 28 June 2012 02:40, Jim Eng <jimeng at umich.edu> wrote:

> I was thinking of always pulling the citation ids for a collection from
> the new table and migrating the sakai:hasCitation rows. In other words,
> every collection has an order, it just starts with the order in which they
> were added but can be reordered later. The new table describes the
> ordering, the current table holds the collection's metadata as currently.
>
>
> That sounds good.
>
>
> On Jun 27, 2012, at 5:51 PM, Adrian Fish wrote:
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> One approach would be to add a property to a citation_collection to
>> indicate that it as a custom-ordering and then add a property to each
>> citation in a custom-ordered citation_collection to indicate its index.
>>  Then you would need to define a comparator that would be used for those
>> citation lists.  You'd need to deal with a couple possible errors:
>>
>
> I thought about that but thought that in the future you may want to  have
> the same citation in a few collections - storing the order in the citation
> table wouldn't work in that case, it would need to be stored against the
> collection in some way.
>
>
>> If you feel that is not a good solution, you could add the table you
>> described, but that seems to have potential problems.  Sometimes you would
>> be getting the list of citations in a collection using
>> the sakai:hasCitation entries, and other times you would be getting them
>> from this new table.  Not sure how well that would work.
>>
>
> I was thinking of always pulling the citation ids for a collection from
> the new table and migrating the sakai:hasCitation rows. In other words,
> every collection has an order, it just starts with the order in which they
> were added but can be reordered later. The new table describes the
> ordering, the current table holds the collection's metadata as currently.
>
> Cheers,
> Adrian.
>
>
>> On Jun 27, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Adrian Fish wrote:
>>
>> I could do with a bit of advice on the citations helper work I'm doing,
>> if there are any citations people around.
>>
>> I'm currently looking at the reordering ticket (
>> https://jira.sakaiproject.org/browse/SAK-22296) and was thinking of
>> setting up a new table that basically linked a collection with its
>> citations and had the position index in a column. I could just add some
>> more property types indicating position to the props table, but my instinct
>> is that this will not be a particularly performant approach. If I went this
>> route it would obviously mean data duplication as the sakai:hasCitation
>> rows in citation_collection do the same thing but without the explicit
>> ordering.
>>
>> Any thoughts or suggestions anybody?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Adrian.
>>
>> On 22 June 2012 21:31, Cliff, David Graeme <dgcliff at iu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>  Woops, forgot to reply all (sorry for the double post Jim!)
>>>
>>>
>>> I think that seems very reasonable, and would probably greatly speed up
>>> the pace of getting the Oxford fixes into trunk.
>>>
>>>
>>> - David
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Jim Eng [mailto:jimeng at umich.edu]
>>> *Sent:* Friday, June 22, 2012 4:30 PM
>>> *To:* Adrian Fish
>>> *Cc:* Adam Marshall; John Leasia; Noah Botimer; Eric Echeverri; Jon
>>> Dunn; Susan Hollar; Mark H Notess; Cliff, David Graeme; Matthew Buckett;
>>> Charles Severance
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Building Sakai] Oxford Citations Helper work
>>>
>>>
>>> I keep forgetting to respond about commit rights in citations code.  I
>>> favor giving Adrian commit rights.  But I guess that decision might involve
>>> some other people.  If anybody has any issues, please get back to me before
>>> Monday.  If I don't hear anything before then, I will ask to have Adrian
>>> added.
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 22, 2012, at 4:40 AM, Adrian Fish wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Jim,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the well expressed, as always, email.
>>>
>>> Adam, have you got any documentation from Oxford's library types? I'm
>>> sure the group would like to take a look at it. The more librarians, the
>>> merrier, as we say here.
>>>
>>> Similarly, it sounds like it may be worth somebody at Oxford taking a
>>> look at the results of the requirements gathering exercises Jim mentions so
>>> you know what's on the radar.
>>>
>>> I know that what I just said is obvious, I just wanted to try and say
>>> something intelligent, okay?
>>>
>>> By the way, has anybody got any issues with me having commit on the
>>> citations code? I'll be submitting a lot of patches over the next couple of
>>> weeks. I'll treat it with love, promise.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Adrian.
>>>
>>>  On 22 June 2012 03:33, Jim Eng <jimeng at umich.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree with you, Adrian, that student involvement was a winning formula
>>> for dashboard.  But the challenges here are quite different.
>>>
>>>
>>> The functionality we are talking about now is support for embedding
>>> citations in various contexts, and we have not found that many students are
>>> using that capability or interested in using that capability.  If it gets a
>>> lot easier and a lot more natural, students may use it at times, but it's
>>> unlikely they will ever use it very heavily in part because, while students
>>> get information from the LMS and submit assignments through the LMS and at
>>> times use it to communicate, most students do not do a lot of writing or
>>> composition within the LMS (any LMS). It's just not the best environment
>>> for student composition (in my opinion).
>>>
>>>
>>> On the other hand, some instructors and some librarians do author
>>> materials in the LMS and some subset of those instructors and librarians
>>> are very interested in incorporating citations in various contexts in the
>>> LMS.  Requirements gathering for citations work has focused on instructors
>>> and librarians more than students, for that reason.  I'm not saying that
>>> students should not be consulted, but they are not the main focus in this
>>> case (as opposed to the dashboard, where they clearly are).
>>>
>>>
>>> We have gone through two fairly significant requirements-gathering
>>> processes in the past six years.  The first led to development of the
>>> citations helper.  The second focused on possible development of new
>>> functionality for OAE, but that has not been pursued very much.  Some of us
>>> who expect to use CLE for several more years are now trying to follow up on
>>> that work to improve and/or replace current functionality in CLE related to
>>> citations.  We've already learned a lot about the requirements over the
>>> past six years, so there's little interest in doing more analysis.
>>>
>>>
>>> That is not to say that the process won't benefit from input and
>>> feedback from end users and from support people at sakai schools that make
>>> use of the current citations helper.  I think we should work with Oxford
>>> and ask people there for feedback as we work on this, just as we should get
>>> feedback from people at Michigan, Indiana and other schools where people
>>> use the citations helper.  But I think we are near the end of the design
>>> phase, rather than near the beginning.
>>>
>>>
>>> Here's what I expect to happen:  We will see a bunch of improvements in
>>> the citations helper for sakai 2.10.  They will come from you, Oxford,
>>> Indiana and Michigan.  We will all talk with each other as we do this work.
>>>  All of us will also post information in JIRA and on the sakai-user list as
>>> we work on things. At some point, we may have a proposal for a better
>>> integration of external citations management systems into sakai.  When that
>>> happens, I think we will all discuss it.  Maybe we'll have some paper
>>> mockups or a clickable prototype that people at various schools will be
>>> able to use to gather feedback from targeted groups of end-users.  We will
>>> also work with experts to make sure what we do is accessible and easy to
>>> use. And we will try to develop it as quickly as possible.
>>>
>>>
>>> Just my opinion.  It would be good to hear from a few other people at
>>> Indiana and Michigan.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 21, 2012, at 2:36 PM, Adrian Fish wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Jim,
>>>
>>> I know you weren't suggesting that :)
>>>
>>> Thanks for keeping me and Oxford in the loop; they unfortunately missed
>>> the conference as they were deep in the nether regions of a major Sakai
>>> upgrade. Ouch. Are you going to keep the ticket updated with comments as
>>> you go? Are you thinking of doing it as a student project like Dashboard?
>>> That's a winning formula!
>>>
>>> Cheers again,
>>> Adrian.
>>>
>>> On 21 June 2012 19:24, James Eng <jimeng at umich.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> That sounds good, Adrian. I wasn't suggesting you hold off. We are
>>> going ahead with SAK-22083. I just wanted to make sure you were aware
>>> of the discussions from the conference and the ideas being discussed
>>> since then.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/21/12, Adrian Fish <adrian.r.fish at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Hi Jim at al,
>>> >
>>> > We're going to press on with the Oxford changes for the time being.
>>> They
>>> > need the fixes in the short term and this redesign sounds like a
>>> fairly big
>>> > job. They're obviously interested in a redesign and will still want to
>>> be
>>> > involved in the specification process. They have an engaged set of
>>> > academics and librarians by the sound of it so will be a useful
>>> sounding
>>> > board.
>>> >
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > Adrian.
>>> >
>>> > On 21 June 2012 10:23, Adam Marshall <adam.marshall at oucs.ox.ac.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>  Since we have integrated CH with Ex-libris PRIMO we’ve had a lot more
>>> >> interest but a number of people have said they cant use the tool
>>> because
>>> >> ….
>>> >> We have tried to address the simpler requests with the work that
>>> Adrian
>>> >> is
>>>
>>> >> to be doing.****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> There are 3 other ‘biggies’ that people ask for****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>>
>>> >>
>>> >> 1/ The ability for specified librarians to see all reading lists and
>>> get
>>> >> a
>>>
>>> >> collated view so they can see what books etc are on reading lists.****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>>
>>> >>
>>> >> 2/ Import from Word / PDF – people have word docs that they want to
>>>
>>> >> translate into a reading list****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>>
>>> >>
>>> >> 3/ ‘resolve’ references that haven’t been created via a PRIMO search,
>>> >> This
>>> >> is for lists created by RefWorks / EndNote import that do not have an
>>> >> open
>>> >> URL assigned. What we would do is have a resolve button that when
>>> >> clicked,
>>> >> sends (say) the ISBN to PRIMO search and gets back the corresponding
>>> open
>>> >> URL. The reference is then modified and ends up with the same meta
>>> data
>>> >> that one would have got if one had created the reference by doing a
>>> PRIMO
>>>
>>> >> search and importing to Sakai.****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> Other requests are ****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>>
>>> >>
>>> >> 1/ better import from EndNote / RefWorks – we think there are (or
>>> were)
>>>
>>> >> bugs with this process.****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>>
>>> >>
>>> >> 2/ allow citations to be inserted into other HTML documents. We would
>>> >> need
>>> >> to insert the reference plus associated JavaScript (from Talis’s Juice
>>>
>>> >> library) which would grab availability info from PRIMO.****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>>
>>> >>
>>> >> 3/ add “course association” meta data to reading lists so one can
>>> search
>>> >> the system for all reading lists for Biochemistry 101 for the academic
>>> >> year
>>>
>>> >> 2011-12****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> Adam****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> *From:* Adrian Fish [mailto:adrian.r.fish at gmail.com]
>>> >> *Sent:* 20 June 2012 22:30
>>> >> *To:* Jim Eng
>>> >>
>>> >> *Cc:* John Leasia; Noah Botimer; Eric Echeverri; Jon Dunn; Susan
>>> Hollar;
>>>
>>> >> Mark H Notess; David Graeme Cliff; Adam Marshall; Matthew Buckett
>>>
>>> >> *Subject:* Re: [Building Sakai] Oxford Citations Helper work****
>>> >>
>>> >>  ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> Hi Jim,
>>> >>  ****
>>>
>>> >>
>>> >>  There are several reasons.  One has to do with our assessment that
>>> the
>>> >> citations helper is not meeting people's needs very well.  That is
>>>
>>> >> supported by the fact that it is not used very much anywhere.****
>>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Is that your experience also, Adam? How does the current tool go down
>>> at
>>> >> Oxford. Obviously, from the tickets, there are concerns about it.
>>> Would
>>> >> it
>>> >> make sense to you to take part in a new tool design? Can your users
>>> wait
>>> >> for a new tool or are they champing at the bit for the improvements?
>>>
>>> >>  ****
>>>
>>> >>
>>> >>  A much more natural workflow would be that an instructor (or student)
>>> >> comes across a citation that seems relevant and wants to save it,
>>> >> possibly
>>> >> for use in a course now or in the future.  That can be saved to
>>> Zotero,
>>>
>>> >> RefWorks, EndNote, Mendeley or any other citations manager.  ****
>>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> That's makes sense. During their lit search they just gather
>>> citations in
>>> >> Zotero and then import them as and when they need to. I do have a
>>> >> question
>>> >> about this process though. If you were working on a paper, maybe in
>>> >> collaboration with others, wouldn't it make far more sense to use
>>> Google
>>> >> Docs and its research tool? You can suck citations straight in from
>>> >> scholar
>>> >> with that sidebar and it seems really simple. Maybe citations only
>>> ever
>>> >> gets used as a reading list tool and only ever will. Just a way of
>>> >> rendering a reading list for a course.
>>> >>
>>> >> Cheers again,
>>>
>>> >> Adrian.****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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