[Building Sakai] [WG: Accessibility] CKEditor 3.2
D. Stuart Freeman
stuart.freeman at et.gatech.edu
Tue Mar 9 12:22:35 PST 2010
MarkItUp looks really cool for "power users" too. I personally prefer to
use well known markup languages over hunting through buttons to do
markup, especially when I know how easily I could do something in html
but I can't find the button for it.
On Mon, Mar 08, 2010 at 02:44:49PM -0800, Eli Cochran wrote:
> Ken,
> Thank you so much for taking CKEditor for such a thorough test drive --
> definitely more than "a spin". Very helpful.
> We should log your "one major drawback ... no way to get out of the
> toolbar" as a bug with the CKEditor folks. Would you like to do that? If
> not, I'm happy to.
> I appreciate your comments about text-based markup languages being a
> superior experience for screen reader users. I would have to agree. And
> thanks for the suggestion of markItUp. [1] Nice product. I especially like
> that it supports multiple markup languages. Switching to something
> like markItUp for the Sakai 2 line is too radical a switch from FCKeditor
> but something that we should consider for Sakai 3.
> Thanks,
> Eli
> [1] [1]http://markitup.jaysalvat.com/home/
> On Mar 7, 2010, at 12:15 PM, Ken Petri wrote:
>
> Hi Eli,
>
> Taken for a spin. Here are my subjective impressions. Your mileage may
> vary (but I think I'm hitting pretty close to the mark).
>
> Conclusion: CKEditor is now better than TinyMCE with regard to
> accessibility. I tested both in NVDA with Firefox and in IE with JAWS
> 11. When in the editor, it was necessary to be in pass-through mode/have
> the Virtual PC Cursor off.
>
> The one major drawback to CKEditor is that there is no way to get out of
> the toolbar and back into the editor area without issuing a
> command/activating a button--why not just another Alt + Shift + F10 to
> toggle between the panes? By contrast, TinyMCE allows a Alt + Shift + Z
> to bump you back into the editor. And it should be noted that neither
> editor functions very reliably when in full-screen mode--you tend to
> lose track of where the cursor is.
>
> On all other scores, CK is in the lead or equal to Tiny. Unlike Tiny,
> CKEditor:
>
> * toolbar behaves like a toolbar, accepting arrow keys (as well as tab
> key presses)
> * accommodates Windows high-contrast mode, replacing the toolbar icons
> with text (Tiny becomes unusable in high-contrast mode)
> * dropdown menus are easier to navigate with the screen reader
> * right-click menu was available via Shift + F10 (which is a standard
> keystroke--you can also use the Windows menu key, if the keyboard
> has one--this does not work in Tiny)
> * editor pane clearly announces itself as such when focused with with
> the screen reader
> * Unselectable menu items are announced as such when focused with the
> screen reader
> * "path" region is announced as such when focused with the screen
> reader
> * dialogs (that I tested) are properly marked up and escapable with
> standard keystrokes that return focus to the editing area (Tiny's
> are properly marked up and focused but don't return focus properly)
>
> Overall, CK feels more polished and modern in its approach to
> accessibility. It's keyboard accessibility is very much like a desktop
> application. Its screen reader accessibility is, in my opinion, superior
> to Tiny.
>
> General caveat for all of the above: WYSIWYG in-browser
> JavaScript-powered editors are a major pain in the ass to use with a
> screen reader, regardless of screen reader/browser combination. As I
> have noted before on this list, if your goal is functional
> accessibility, make the editor optional and have as an available
> alternative a text area or similar that takes Markdown, WikiText, or
> Textile and parses it into HTML.
>
> Let me give a concrete example of why WYSIWYG is "problematic"/sucky: If
> I'm in a WYSIWYG, regardless of which one, and I want to style some
> text, so I've gone through the relatively laborious process of selecting
> the text and navigating/jumping to the toolbar, looking through all of
> its options, and finally setting a style on that selected text, how,
> then, do I determine whether or not that style "took?" Answer: I have to
> jump to the "path" bar and navigate through its representation of the
> document tree and hope beyond hope that those three nested spans that
> surround that bit of text I've just styled actually represent the
> styling I want. Or, worse, I go into the source view and try to
> determine the styling from raw HTML markup.
>
> This is huge work. And if you think that sounds hard, try editing a
> table in an in-browser WYSIWYG with a screen reader. It is nearly
> impossible.
>
> By contrast, if the styles are pre-defined and I know their names,
> adding a class in Textile is very simple--just typing a couple of
> characters to start and end the style block and typing in the name of
> the style. Creating a table is also relatively simple--typing cell
> contents, pipes to separate columns and rows, and asterisks for
> identifying table headers (depending on your flavor of Textile). And
> making or editing plain old HTML headings, links, and lists is trivially
> simple--I can instantly tell in the editor if a list is a list, a
> heading a heading, bold is bold, etc.
>
> I realize there will be overhead for the parsing operations on a
> Textile-type set up, but in the long run you will make your screen
> reader reliant users much happier. You might have a look at Jay Salvat's
> MarkItUp. It has a problem with reverse-tabbing out of the editor, but
> other than that seems pretty solid. MarkItUp might satisfy both screen
> reader users and users who just don't like WYSIWYG.
>
> Best,
> ken
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Ken Petri
> Program Director
> OSU Web Accessibility Center
> 102D Pomerene Hall
> 1760 Neil Avenue
> Columbus, Ohio 43210
> Phone: (614) 292-1760
> Fax: (614) 292-4190
> mailto:[2]petri.1 at osu.edu
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Eli Cochran <[3]eli at media.berkeley.edu>
> wrote:
>
> This is a follow up to a thread that started back in November.
> At that time there was discussion about upgrading Sakai to use
> CKEditor 3.0.1 instead of FCKEditor. CKEditor is a significant upgrade
> to FCKEditor, primarily in the area of accessibility.
> Today I noticed that CKSource released another upgrade on Feb. 25th,
> CKEditor 3.2. This version continues to expand the accessibility of
> CKEditor by support WAI-ARIA.
> [4]http://ckeditor.com/blog/CKEditor_3.2_released
> Does someone in our accessibility community have time to take it for a
> spin to validate the accessibility?
> Thanks,
> Eli
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> .
> Eli Cochran
> user interaction developer
> ETS, UC Berkeley
> _______________________________________________
> accessibility mailing list
> [5]accessibility at collab.sakaiproject.org
> [6]http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility
>
> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send email to
> [7]accessibility-unsubscribe at collab.sakaiproject.org with a subject of
> "unsubscribe"
>
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> .
> Eli Cochran
> user interaction developer
> ETS, UC Berkeley
>
> References
>
> Visible links
> 1. http://markitup.jaysalvat.com/home/
> 2. mailto:petri.1 at osu.edu
> 3. mailto:eli at media.berkeley.edu
> 4. http://ckeditor.com/blog/CKEditor_3.2_released
> 5. mailto:accessibility at collab.sakaiproject.org
> 6. http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility
> 7. mailto:accessibility-unsubscribe at collab.sakaiproject.org
> _______________________________________________
> sakai-dev mailing list
> sakai-dev at collab.sakaiproject.org
> http://collab.sakaiproject.org/mailman/listinfo/sakai-dev
>
> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send email to sakai-dev-unsubscribe at collab.sakaiproject.org with a subject of "unsubscribe"
--
D. Stuart Freeman
Georgia Institute of Technology
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 198 bytes
Desc: Digital signature
Url : http://collab.sakaiproject.org/pipermail/sakai-dev/attachments/20100309/addf91d3/attachment.bin
More information about the sakai-dev
mailing list